Need help with towing

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Spatula
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Need help with towing

Postby Spatula » Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:21 pm

Hi all!

I'm having a towing issue with my R51. It's a 2012 V6, with General Grabber 285/65R16s and rear airbag suspension, otherwise it seems pretty stock.
We have a 1981 Bigfoot 17' fiberglass camper that we've had for about 6 years. We pulled it with a 2010 Dodge Journey (3500lb tow capacity), which struggled, then with a 2016 Pathfinder SV (5000lb tow capacity), which was a huge improvement.

At Christmas I totaled the R52 and bought or R51, which has a 6000lb to capacity, right? We never had a real problem towing with the R52, but I still figured that with the higher capacity, the R51 would tow even better...
Unfortunately, not so. Our 411km (255 miles) trip to Cypress Hills was about an 7 hour drive, because the Pathy would downshift into fourth gear if I went over 80kph (50mph). At one point early on I was determined to go 100kph (60mph) and was cruising at over 4000rpm. Watching the gas mileage change, I didn't do that for very long. We reached about 28 Litres/100km (8.4mpg), and averaged about 25L/100km (9.4mpg) over the 411km.

The trailer is a single axle, and weighed 2860lbs fully loaded last time I checked. We're using a Husky round bar weight distribution hitch, and I added 40psi to the rear airbags to get pretty level.

Also, the tpms warning light kept coming on. Three tires got up to about 38psi and one read *** when they warmed up so I pulled over and dropped them all down to 32psi, but it didn't help the shifting at all.

I repacked the camper wheel hubs two years ago, and have maybe put on 2,000km (1200 miles) since then. The trailer tires are also two years old, and were at about 34psi warmed up.

Any idea why I can't go over 80kph? Is it the transmission? I don't know when, if ever, it's been serviced... The Dodge Journey transmission would last about 3 hours on the highway, then I'd actually have a similar problem, I always figured it was over heating. This happened to the R51 immediately.
Could these bigger tires be holding me back? Or is it the trailer? At one point I thought maybe the magnetic trailer brakes had siezed (I accidently pulled out the break away cable when hooking up before the trip), but they were still working.

Today we drove about 220km (137 miles) without the trailer, on pavement, gravel, dirt farm roads, up and down steep slopes, and it drove like a dream!

I'm seriously dreading the drive home with the trailer on Friday.

Thanks for listening!


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NWPathfinder
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Re: Need help with towing

Postby NWPathfinder » Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:44 am

How was your voyage home?

Hope you figured it out, i know this thread is almost a month old but, thought I'd ask.

Spatula
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Re: Need help with towing

Postby Spatula » Mon Aug 24, 2020 9:22 am

Thanks, the voyage home was surprisingly uneventful. She pulled very nice and we did the 400km trip in about 4 hours. It was a bit cooler weather and rained most of the way. When I got home I drained and filled the tranny, twice, and had the dealer flush the diffys and the transfer case and an oil change.
The trip home was so easy that we booked another week of camping at the same spot and drove back to Cypress yesterday... Another f'n nightmare. We were great for about 220km, rolling at 90-100kph. I tried to keep it in fourth gear, about 2200rpm. When she goes into fifth she wants to slow down. Anyway we stopped for lunch for probably 30 minutes then were back on the road. A few minutes in and and were basically topped out at third gear for the last 180 km, and the tpms light came on again and the tires were reading 37, 37, 38, *.
Nothing fun about driving 70kph in a 110kph zone. So now I'm pretty sure about two things: the heat is a contributing factor ( it was 32°C /90°F after lunch yesterday, and same for the last trip or here, then cooler when we drove home) and it's the trailer. I've pulled it with three different vehicles. I had basically the same issue pulling it with the 2010 Dodge Journey, it was good for about 2 hours /200km, then the tranny would start misbehaving. It was rated for 3500lbs, so I just figured that the 2900lb trailer was too much for it and I needed something stronger. The 2016 PF was better, rated for 5000lb, but still we were topped out rolling at about 90kph, but were never stuck at third gear or had the tpms warning light come on.

I was thinking that I wish they made standard transmission Pathys, I wonder if anyone has done a tranny swap with a manual Frontier? I know it's not a solution, but I do miss driving standard.

Not much I can do here but relax and enjoy the heat. Supposed to be cooler when we drove home Friday...

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palmerwmd
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Re: Need help with towing

Postby palmerwmd » Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:44 am

Sounds like your car went into limp mode when the tranny sensors sensed excessive temps.
Replacing the radiator will go a long way to brining temps down as the factory heat exchanger in the radiator DOES contribute to ATF cooling.

Spatula
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Re: Need help with towing

Postby Spatula » Mon Aug 24, 2020 11:04 am

palmerwmd wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:44 am
Sounds like your car went into limp mode when the tranny sensors sensed excessive temps.
Replacing the radiator will go a long way to brining temps down as the factory heat exchanger in the radiator DOES contribute to ATF cooling.
Thanks! Is there an aftermarket rad that you recommend?

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palmerwmd
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Re: Need help with towing

Postby palmerwmd » Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:58 pm

Spatula wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 11:04 am
palmerwmd wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:44 am
Sounds like your car went into limp mode when the tranny sensors sensed excessive temps.
Replacing the radiator will go a long way to brining temps down as the factory heat exchanger in the radiator DOES contribute to ATF cooling.
Thanks! Is there an aftermarket rad that you recommend?
There are some recommendations from more qualified members than myself in this thread :
viewtopic.php?f=34&t=17198&start=30

Spatula
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Re: Need help with towing

Postby Spatula » Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:56 pm

Thanks! After reading through that I'm wondering if my transmission cooler is working... Is it possible for the cooler to fail? It's not leaking. But it's only when I'm towing that we have issues. It's been fine on the highway even in smoking hot & dry weather without the trailer. But I guess it's when you're towing that you need the cooler.
The Spectra Premium FC2306T oil cooler is $105 + $12 shipping.

Is there an app that will read transmission temp from a Bluetooth obdi2?

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palmerwmd
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Re: Need help with towing

Postby palmerwmd » Tue Aug 25, 2020 1:21 pm

Like all coolers it could get clogged..
But my money is on a radiator that got marginal.

Protect your tranny dont play games with it.. these are not cheap to replace... and pretty strong transmissions.. but like any if they get overheated it will need a rebuild.

There are apps and plug in OBD2 that can read transmission temp.. I have used the plug in units before never tried to bluetooth it.

Also check out our R51 Drive train forum..
Come to think about it I should probably move this thread there.. :)

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pathy-logical
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Re: Need help with towing

Postby pathy-logical » Sun Nov 08, 2020 4:30 pm

Hi Spatula,
Last edited by pathy-logical on Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:57 am, edited 3 times in total.

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pathy-logical
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Re: Need help with towing

Postby pathy-logical » Mon Nov 09, 2020 3:51 pm

pathy-logical wrote:
Sun Nov 08, 2020 4:30 pm
Hi Spatula,
Did you find the problem with your Pathfinder? I leave an OBD scanner plugged in all the time so I can monitor various things as I'm driving. My truck is a 2012 2wd, my trailer is 4400lbs dry. Standard tire size 245/75x16 is about 30.5". My 265/70x16 and your 285/65x16 are both approximately 30.5 inches. I don't think tire diameter is any kind of issue adversely affecting gearing but in the case of your TPM error perhaps air volume is a problem as the tire heats up. You have a big contact patch.

If you don't have a long history with the vehicle it might be advisable to change the trans fluid and the radiator coolant. A trans fluid change only costs about $20 if you use Valvolene MaxLife as was recommended to me here. There's no filter to replace and the pan has a drain plug. There is a screen inside, accessible by dropping the pan. I suppose it could be partially clogged. Another thing would be to check the fluid level before you drain, both cold and hot. Mine at 92k was right on the cold and hot marks. Trans fluid expands when it gets hot maybe someone overfilled it. Not certain if that would cause a problem like yours but it does seem heat related. Maybe it's too low. Many, including myself, have said they can't see fluid on the dipstick, check carefully with a light, it will most likely look clear. But it isn't really. If it is dark and smells burned it's definitly bad. Anyway I think your transmission is going into "failsafe mode" (maybe that's what some refer to as "limp mode") which can lock the transmission in 2nd, 4th or 5th gear depending on what the detected error is. Look for information on the Jatco RE5R05A transmission on the internet, there"s a lot of information about it out there. Two good reads are a PDF on the Infiniti/Nissan RE5R05A Transmission put out by Automatic Transmission Service Group of Cutler Bay, Florida and and 2007_01_12.pdf An overview of the Jatco RE5R05A by Lance Wiggins.

I use Nissan coolant. It's pricey but has worked well for me.

Back to the scanner. I use OBDLink LX connected all the time. I also have Blue Driver so I can compare readings when/if I get an error. Neither of them have a means of checking the trans temp. I've done a lot of looking but haven't found anything that will report it. Newer models will but not my 2012. There is a trans cooler in the radiator and another in series with it mounted in front of the air conditioner condenser on the driver's side. I mounted a Hayden 677 cooler on the passenger side (threaded holes are already there) in series with the drivers side cooler. So the flow is trans to radiator to cooler 1 to cooler 2 to trans. I monitor my coolant temperature and have never seen it go above 205° F in combined highway/city, A/C on, here in SW Florida (90-95° here this past July and August). However, all of my trips thus far have been local so I can't comment on hours long pulls. Also pretty damn flat here. Just bought the trailer in July. I've noticed that my electric radiator fan kicks on at 195.8° in city traffic. Even on the highway at speed the temp monitor shows the fan switching on at 195.8°, temp varies from about 190° to 198.5° without trailer. With the trailer it has gotten as high as 205°.

Some have bypassed the trans cooler in the radiator. May work for them but I prefer not to. The torque converter will only lock up in fourth gear above 40 mph if the trans is up to a predetermined temperature. I think that is about 175° degrees or there abouts. If the ECU knows when the trans is up to temp maybe there is a way to read it. Then again it may just be a go/no go affair. I'm considering putting another Hayden 677 between the trans and the radiator just to see what the results are. The engine/trans heating and cooling one another continuously in a never ending cycle. I'm interested in seeing if it can be fine tuned to suit the application more precisely.

Hope this helps in some way.

Spatula
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Re: Need help with towing

Postby Spatula » Sun Nov 15, 2020 5:23 pm

Hi, thanks for the great reply. No fix yet. Our trip back on August 29 was uneventful; the weather was cooler and we had zero issues with shifting. I had the dealer change the diffys and transfer case. I did drain and refill the tranny myself with Valvoline Maxlife, twice. When we returned I took the Pathy into my independent mechanic, who referred me to a transmission place. The transmission guy told me that if there's no lights/codes, then he cant' diagnose it unless I bring it back when it's happening. I took it into my local Nissan dealer, and they said the same thing (they even offered for me to hook up to the trailer, recreate the shifting problem and call them and they'll drive it with the trailer and try to diagnose it). Unfortunately it only seems to happen when the outside temperature is over 25°C (77°F), and we won't see that again until June, at the earliest. The dealer checked the tranny fluid and topped it up for me. We also discussed the "limp mode," but as I explained that revs are not limited (I can drive the RPM through the roof, it just won't shift any higher), and there are no lights or codes, he didn't think that it was entering limp mode.

I've been using a $15 ebay bluetooth OBD II with the paid version of Torque. The Coolant temperature currently sits around 82°C (180°F) when she warms up, but that is just city driving; I believe when we were towing and not having issues that it was around 96°C (205°F), I will need to monitor more closely in the future.

I may add the Hayden 677 to the passenger side like you did and see if that helps. Damn I wish I had a heated garage right now! It's about -15°C (5°F) today, and only going to get colder now...

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blink32
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Re: Need help with towing

Postby blink32 » Sun Nov 29, 2020 5:59 pm

Without being on the trip with you I'm going hypothesize that your vehicle was operating as intended/expected and here are some things leading me to that. Although degraded fluids, plugged or not well functioning cooler, etc could have exacerbated your issues. Your R52 had a CVT transmission whereas your R51 has the 5 speed automatic. Unless things have changed or my memory is junk I recall Nissan recommending that when towing you disable Overdrive and leave it in 4th. This prevents the transmission from continually hunting into and out of 5th and in and out of OD lock up. Its the hunting for gears and in and out of OD lock up that builds up the fluid temps. Mostly in 5th when out of OD lock up you have all that fluid dynamics at play generating heat. I have towed thousands of miles in my 06 and 95% of the time I've got OD disabled jamming along in 4th. Yes it is at the cost of fuel consumption but I'd rather pay an extra $100 in gas vs $k's for a trans rebuild. This is especially true if your path had anything other than absolutely flat ground. Hills, headwinds, all of that makes it that much harder to tow in 5th. Your R52 was closer to infinitely variable so it kept you in power and good MPG at all times vs the R51.

In June I towed a 2009 Camry 2100 KM from Southern California to the Mid-West. Dead of summer through the US high and low desert. Median curb weight for that vehicle is 3350lb's but it was absolutely packed to the gills and was pushing 4k easily if not more between it and the car dolly. Not to mention the 4 adults, 2 kids, rocket box, front cargo tray and the tiny leftover "trunk" space of my pathy being totally packed. I had zero issues with my 06 R51 but I kept it out of OD a vast majority of the time. Only on flat level lands with no headwinds did I enable it.

Regarding your TPMS, no idea to be honest. The *** generally happens when a battery is going to pot and you need to replace the sensor. I run 50PSI cold in my tires and the original stock sensors as well as the one's I've replaced those with all read from 32 up to 60psi just fine with no complaints. I only ever had TPMS lights and some sensors reporting *** when batteries were dying.

Lakehead Pathfinder
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Re: Need help with towing

Postby Lakehead Pathfinder » Sun Nov 29, 2020 8:12 pm

^what he said. I towed 3000 pounds plus loaded vehicle over the BC Rockies passes a few years ago. 4th is the way. (Apologies to any Mandelorians on here)
Fuel consumption takes a beating, but temps don't increase much. Towing performance, considering it's "just" a V6 is pretty impressive IMO.

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blink32
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Re: Need help with towing

Postby blink32 » Mon Nov 30, 2020 3:35 pm

Lakehead Pathfinder wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 8:12 pm
...... considering it's "just" a V6 is pretty impressive IMO.
That's one thing I forgot to point out and that I agree with. Dragging the load I did this past June there was no time I ever thought to myself "I'm operating unsafely here." Of course this wasn't a high sided boat or trailer acting like a wind sail or a mis-loaded trailer causing the tail to wag the dog but I wasn't dropping down to first and scraping ass to get up any passes either.

Spatula
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Re: Need help with towing

Postby Spatula » Sun Dec 20, 2020 9:01 am

Thanks, those are good considerations. Unfortunately my 2012 does not have a Overdrive lockout. I could shift into "M4", but according to the owner's manual it may still shift into 5th if it revs high enough. But I'll definitely try that in the spring.


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