Cam Shaft Seal Grooves - Please give advice!

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Joe Piro
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Cam Shaft Seal Grooves - Please give advice!

Postby Joe Piro » Thu Mar 10, 2022 2:00 pm

I have a 1995 Pathfinder with 243,000 miles. I am replacing all belts, hoses, t'stat, water pump and anything else I encounter in the process!
I'm also replacing the oil seals for the cam shafts and the crank shaft. The cam shafts have a groove from where the oil seal lip contacts the shaft. I have attached a photo of the wear for you to see.
I expect the crank shaft will have a wear groove also
From what I turn up and read on the internet, the most common fix seems to be an SKF Speedi Sleeve (or equivalent from other manufacturers).
However I have read that there are seals available that are designed so the lip contacts the shaft in a different spot and I have also read where someone suggests simply driving the seal in to a different depth so the lip makes contact in a different spot.
Driving the seal in deeper seems to be the easiest solution and I think 1 mm would be enough because the groove is only a half mm or less.
Does anyone have any personal experience of success or failure doing this?
Does anyone know where to buy seals that are designed to wear in a different spot? (I can't find anything about that.)
And also, if I go with the sleeve, do I have to worry about damaging a cam shaft bearing or anything else when I hammer on the end to drive on the sleeve?
Thanks in advance for your help.
Attachments
Groove in Cam Shaft.png


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smj999smj
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Re: Cam Shaft Seal Grooves - Please give advice!

Postby smj999smj » Wed Mar 16, 2022 6:00 am

I know of the seals you are talking about but I'm not aware of any for the Nissan VG engine. As far as the Redi-sleeve, the ones I've used required removing the camshaft from the cylinder head to install, but that was a very long time ago and maybe they're updated the design since then?

Joe Piro
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Re: Cam Shaft Seal Grooves - Please give advice!

Postby Joe Piro » Wed Mar 16, 2022 9:33 pm

Thanks for the reply.
I don't really want to remove the cam shafts. I have used SKF Speedi Sleeves before and I was really happy with the results, but it required more than a tap to drive them on. Before I force anything onto the cam shaft, I think I will try to drive the seals in to a different depth and simply avoid seal to metal contact with the groove.
Before I started this task, I thought removing the belts, timing covers and cam shaft gears would be very complicated, but actually it was easy. If the new seals still leak, I can RandR the whole thing in a fraction of the time, second time around.

BTW if any one else still wants to chime in, please do so. This post had 91 views and only one reply, so there must be more information
out there!

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smj999smj
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Re: Cam Shaft Seal Grooves - Please give advice!

Postby smj999smj » Thu Mar 17, 2022 2:13 am

You might try using some emery cloth to clean up the end of the camshaft before you install the seal. Since you have the rear timing belt cover removed, it's also a good time to replace the coolant bypass hose behind it, but if you do, get the hose from Nissan as the aftermarket's just don't seem to have the right bend to them. As timing belts go, the VG engine is one of the easiest, especially in rear wheel drive configuration. I've done hundreds of them! When it comes to tightening down the belt, you don't want to get it too tight or it'll make a whining noise. This procedure works for me every time:

Install the belt with the dotted line on the belt aligned with the timing dot on the passenger side cam sprocket (ignore the marks on the rear timing cover, as they are usually a tooth off). There should be an arrow on the belt that should point towards the front of the vehicle. The other two lines on the belt, both solid, should line up with the timing marks on the driver's cam sprocket and crank sprocket, respectively.
Loosen the nut on the tensioner and let it pull up the slack. Then, turn the passenger side cam about 3-4 teeth counter-clockwise when looking at the front of the engine, which will pull the rest of the slack out of the belt. Tighten the nut on the tensioner to 35 lb-ft.
Now, turn the passenger side cam about 3-4 teeth clockwise, which will put any slack between the two cam sprockets. Take your thumb and index finger and twist the timing belt in the middle of the span that runs between the two cam sprockets. You should be able to twist the belt 90-degrees if it is properly tensioned. If you can't, the belt is too tight and, likewise, if you can twist it more than 90-degrees, it's too lose. Ninety-nine percent of the time, it's perfect the first time.

Joe Piro
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Re: Cam Shaft Seal Grooves - Please give advice!

Postby Joe Piro » Thu Mar 17, 2022 1:21 pm

Thanks for the additional pointers. I'm starting on the work shortly, so the advice was just in time.
I have a new Nissan coolant bypass hose that the dealer ordered for me. The old one had a small leak (see photo) which I misinterpreted as a water pump leak. However the camshaft oil seals had to be replaced anyway so I might as well do the water pump since its easy now and has a lot of miles on it.
Thanks again.
Coolant Bypass Hose Pathfinder.png

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smj999smj
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Re: Cam Shaft Seal Grooves - Please give advice!

Postby smj999smj » Fri Mar 18, 2022 8:20 am

Yeah, that's pretty bad! Not sure why it is, but the aftermarket bypass hoses have a more gradual 90 degree curve whereas the Nissan hose is a sharper bend. It's hard to get the aftermarkets to fit sometimes, so it's just better to get the Nissan hose. I spray the inside with silicone spray to help make installation easier.
When I do timing belt jobs on these engines, I get the Gates Timing Belt Component Kit w/ Water Pump from Rockauto, which provides the belt, tensioner pulley and water pump and gasket. When you remove the water pump, there will be two plastic dowels that sit between it and the oil bump casing; try not to lose them during removal! They are about 1/8" diameter by 1-1/2" long, plus or minus. Also, the bottom bolt of the lower timing belt cover is different from the rest in that it doesn't have a rubber insulator around it. If you put any of the other cover bolts in place of it, it will scrape against the back of the crank pulley when you start it up.
If Rockauto has Bando brand drive belts, I'll replace them, as well, and check the idler pulleys. At the crank sprocket, there are two guide plates, one in back of the pulley and one in front. They edge of the guide plates should point away from the timing belt when installed and make sure you install both guide plates before you install the lower timing cover.
Seals I pick up from Nissan and if I am replacing it, I got the thermostat from Nissan, as well. It uses RTV sealant for the gasket, which I prefer because the thermostat housing can develop some pits in it due to corrosion and the RTV will seal them. Paper gaskets are available on the aftermarket, if you prefer.

Joe Piro
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Re: Cam Shaft Seal Grooves - Please give advice!

Postby Joe Piro » Fri Mar 18, 2022 6:59 pm

smj99smj: Thanks for the detailed pointers and caution notes about this job.
Question about Timing Cover Dust Seals:
I see you're a site administrator and apparently very committed to Pathfinders. Thanks for the personal attention. Sure... I agree; Sometimes Nissan parts are best, especially when they're hard to R&R. So I have the Nissan water pump, thermostat, and timing belt, and seals (and bypass hose), all bought at a discount online, so not too expensive.
I was rained out yesterday so I haven't started to re-assemble yet... so I have another question if you don't mind.
Between the back timing cover and the nose of each camshaft bore in the heads there is an O-ring. ( I have included photos.)
I couldn't find them on the parts diagram and neither could the dealer. However it's pretty easy to replace them with similar oil resistant O-rings from the local hydraulics dealer. However I can't figure out why they are there. If the cam shaft oil seals leak, then the oil would be forced into the timing covers instead of down the front of the engine block. That doesn't seem like such a good idea to me.

Also Rock Auto and other vendors sell "Timing Cover Dust Seal" sets. It looks like they include two round things which might be these
O-rings. However I have been through the service manual that Nissan Path is so great to have online (big thank you !!!), and I can't find any instructions about removing and replacing the timing covers or how to seal them. ... Seems like the youtube videos I watch just don't care about that, so ...
The question is: Should I replace the O-rings and seal the timing covers at any other locations? I could just use a little RTV if it's a good idea... apply a small bead and let it cure before assembling the covers.
BTW. The driver's side cam shaft opening has two holes (see photo). They are unthreaded blind holes, but would distort the o-ring compression.
Attachments
O-Ring Three.png
See holes on front of head around cam shaft
O-Ring Two.png
Easy to see where O-ring was
O-Ring One.png
Dirty O-ring hard to see

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smj999smj
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Re: Cam Shaft Seal Grooves - Please give advice!

Postby smj999smj » Sat Mar 19, 2022 4:07 pm

Yeah, you don't need to lose any sleep about those. They are just dust seals; I believe the round rings in Fel-pro kit # TCS45834 are what go there. If you want, you can just run a small bead of RTV silicone gasket maker and let it harden up. If you didn't do anything and just installed it as is, it wouldn't create any problems.

Joe Piro
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Re: Cam Shaft Seal Grooves - Please give advice!

Postby Joe Piro » Tue Mar 29, 2022 12:42 pm

You certainly have been a big help and I appreciate it .
I hate to have to do the same job twice, so I checked my fuel injectors as long as I was where I could see them.
Five of them measure about 12 ohms and the number two (front of car driver side) measures 55 ohms.
I guess I should replace them all. It's money well spent if I can drive another 50 or 100 thousand miles without major work.
RockAuto lists Hitachi and Denso, but they only have one or two of the Denso in stock. Are the Hitachi OK or should I shop elsewhere for the Denso brand injectors.
They list the Hitachi (FIJ0004 and FIJ0003, blue dot and black dot respectively) and the Denso (2971002 and 297001, blue dot and black dot also).
Since they don't have enough Denso brand in stock, are the Hitachi's good quality, and should I get the blue dot or the black dot?
Attached are close-up photos of the spark plugs. Perhaps you can help me "read" the plugs, especially number two which had the bad injector? Two and five both look like they were pretty lean. I probably need to double check the resistance on injector number 5 again !
The good news is none of the plugs are oil fouled. Interesting that they don't all have the same amount of carbon crud on the threads.
Attachments
PLUG SIX.png
PLUG FIVE.png
PLUG FOUR.png
PLUG THREE.png
PLUG TWO.png
PLUG ONE.png

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VStar650CL
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Re: Cam Shaft Seal Grooves - Please give advice!

Postby VStar650CL » Tue Mar 29, 2022 2:49 pm

#5 is running lean, so even if the resistance is good the injector is probably cloggo. #2 is obviously dead, near-zero fuel. #4 is a tad rich but only a tad, the injector may have a slight pressure leak or not be closing completely. The others look healthy. Smj is way better than I am with oldies, so I'll defer to him about the injector brand recommendation.

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Re: Cam Shaft Seal Grooves - Please give advice!

Postby Joe Piro » Tue Mar 29, 2022 8:55 pm

so even if the resistance is good the injector is probably cloggo
Thanks for the analysis. I wasn't able to relate the rich or lean appearance of the plug to a flaw in the injectors. It makes sense once you explain it. Thank you.

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Re: Cam Shaft Seal Grooves - Please give advice!

Postby VStar650CL » Tue Mar 29, 2022 9:15 pm

You're most welcome. The injectors all have the same basic timing from the ECM, so assuming you have equal compression and good spark on all 6, differences in the plug color can only come from the injectors. White always means hot, which pretty much always comes from a lean mixture. You can see the deformed electrode on #2, that indicates really hot, just enough fuel to explode and not really produce any power. Dark can come from other stuff, but since we know at least two injectors are crappy, I'd expect the rich one is rich from the same underlying crappiness.

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Re: Cam Shaft Seal Grooves - Please give advice!

Postby Joe Piro » Wed Mar 30, 2022 8:19 pm

smj999smj wrote:
Fri Mar 18, 2022 8:20 am
from Rockauto
SMJ... Rock Auto has six Hitachi fuel injectors in stock for about $50 each and they list Denso fuel injectors for about $75, but they only have 1 or 2 in stock. However Zoro of all places has plenty of Denso fuel injectors in stock for about $80 each.
I'm going to replace all six. Is it worth spending the money on the Denso injectors? Do you recommend the blue dot or the black dot?
Thanks so much for the advice. I'm about ready to put this all back together and ya'll have made this process easy.

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Re: Cam Shaft Seal Grooves - Please give advice!

Postby smj999smj » Sat Apr 02, 2022 2:47 am

Hitachi actually makes the OE fuel injectors for these engines, so I would go with them. As far as the "black" or "blue" dot, this refers to a paint dot that Nissan put on the fuel injectors to identify the spray pattern. On some injectors, they also used yellow and green paint dots and may be some other colors? The only time which color paint dot you go with matters is when you are replacing less than the full set of fuel injectors; then, you'll want to match what you have in the engine. However, since you are replacing the whole set, it's not a matter of importance; just get a set of the same color dot injectors. You might consider replacing the fuel pressure regulator while you are in there, as well.

Joe Piro
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Re: Cam Shaft Seal Grooves - Please give advice!

Postby Joe Piro » Sun Apr 03, 2022 1:23 pm

smj999smj wrote:
Sat Apr 02, 2022 2:47 am
Hitachi actually makes the OE fuel injectors for these engines, so I would go with them.
Thanks smj. I'll replace all six with Hitachi. That inside knowledge will save me about $180.00. I was resigned to buying the Denso brand simply to not take a risk.
And per your suggestion I'll replace the fuel pressure regulator as well.
Several fuel injector plugs on the wiring harness are brittle so I'll probably splice in new plugs on those. I'll take a look at Pull-a-Part for a complete fuel injector wiring harness, but it is unlikely that I can find another old one any better than my old one.

It is tempting to go one layer deeper to replace the knock sensor, but I read about a work around from someone who bolted a new one on top of the intake plenum. If it's ever necessary I think I can do better than that by attaching two, one to each side of the cast iron engine block. (if I think about it, probably only need one. It's unlikely that the engine would "knock" only on one side.) But with luck I'll never have to do that.

I did read the forum guidelines and had searched for helpful prior posts, So I had seen your advice about the blue and black dots, but I could not find anything about comparing Hitachi with Denso injectors. That's a real money saver.
Thanks a bunch! I really appreciate your commitment to these fine vehicles. (and you too VStar!)

All for now... coffee break is over... back on my head!


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