Yet Another Armada Swap study... no dice.

[GED]

Hello,

You all know the Titan Swap which improves the front-end suspension.

What if one could take parts from the rear of the Armada and improve the rear of the Pathfinder?

[GED]

What is a Titan Swap?

There are multiple versions of it depending on which parts of the Titan Full-Size Pickup you use.

The nice about Nissan is that all 5 cousins - the 3 midsize: Frontier, Xterra & Pathfinder - and - the 3 full-size: Titan, Armada & QX56/QX80 - are all based on the same F-Alpha platform and so, some parts are a simple bolt-on from one to the other.

Basically, the Titan front-end suspension swap on a midsize is to:
bolt-on the lower & upper-control arms, and use a special shock,
and voila, your front-end is now full-size: +3 inches per side.

There is one trick though: since the track is now 6 inches wider,
you need longer axles to compensate. The diff in most midsize is a R180a
while the Titan has a beefier diff. So one cannot use the axles of the Titan.
Enter the luxury full-size which is a full-size with the diff of a midsize.
So use QX80 front axles and your puzzle is complete.
You keep your mid-size spindle, your hubs, your brakes...
Just the axles, control arms and a better shock.
With an SPC aftermarket Titan upper control arm, up to 10 inches of travel can now be achieved for $3000 - $4000.

Here is a stock midsize suspension:




And here is a typical Titan swapped front suspension:




You can see that the stock front lower control arm is roughly 15" long with the shock mount at roughly 7".

While the Titan front lower control arm is roughly 18" (+3") with a shock mount at 8.5".

Because the arm is horizontally longer, for the same angle variation, there is automatically more vertical travel.

[GED]

I've found multiple references that the stock Pathfinder is doing worse than expected off-road:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyslBICupXU

and the rambling:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3aguetATgY
who is not getting a Patrol because of the Pathfinder...

Here is the rear suspension of the Pathfinder:







First thing one can notice is that the shock is not even mounted to the frame, but to the rear subframe. And it is such a tiny shock...

The rear lower control arm has the same 15" length as the front, but because of the very short body of the shock, there is not much room for travel.

Even the bump stop is limiting.

My opinion is that a stock Pathfinder has bad off-road performance because of the very limited travel afforded by the tiny rear suspension. The Pathfinder is a seven seater on 3 rows. That 3rd row is probably what requested that very compact rear suspension.

[GED]

Comparing the Armada rear suspension vs the Pathfinder:

A very reputed suspension expert in California has suggested that the path to improve the Pathfinder rear suspension is to perform a complete rear subframe swap from an Armada.

https://parts.nissanusa.com/a/Nissan_20 ... 31A_1.html



https://parts.nissanusa.com/a/Nissan_20 ... 31A_2.html



When looking at it in reality:


vs



One can notice that the bolts on the Pathfinder are on the extreme edge of the subframe, while those of the Armada are not as exterior. So maybe, it bolts directly to the six bolt mounts.

We do have the first problem that the shock of the Pathfinder is very different from the Armada as it mounts to an arm coming from the subframe, while the Armada top mount is directly on the side of the main frame.

This results is very different design for the rear upper control arms:



vs



But the killer is the following: take a look at the
shock rear lower control arm:
https://www.mevotech.com/part/CMS301102/

and the spring rear lower control arm:
https://www.mevotech.com/part/CMS301183/

They are the SAME EXACT PART used both on the Pathfinder and on the Armada:


So yes, using an Armada subframe would bring us a +3" wider track on each side,
but there would be no increase in travel as the arm lengths would the same.
It would also require welding shock mounts to the frame to be able to use Armada shocks.

And as others before me have already noted,
The Differential speed sensors need to be relocated. The speed sensors on the pathfinder go into the rear differential whereas the armadas speed sensors go into the rear hubs.

The pinion flange will need to be swapped or a new driveshaft will have to be made since the flanges are different sizes between the R200 and R230 Differentials.

Switching to a complete Armada rear end would also require to switch to new knuckles up front to
go from the 6x4.5 (114.3) bolt pattern to the 6x5.5 (139.7) bolt pattern of the Titan/Armada.

So basically an Armada swap is not a bolt-on solution and would not bring any travel gain in the rear (when the pathfinder is severely lacking/needing).

[palmerwmd]

Stock Pathfinder sucks off-road.

I've found multiple references that the stock Pathfinder is doing worse than expected off-road:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyslBICupXU

and the rambling:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3aguetATgY
who is not getting a Patrol because of the Pathfinder...

Here is the rear suspension of the Pathfinder:

Dont forget that the R51 has been judged good enough and tough enough by some militaries to serve as staff vehicles.
The German army for example has used it as a substitute for the Gwagon in some applications.
(also I am never given that 4x overland guy the traffic.)

[GED]

What could be done?

Instead of relying on longer arms, a longer shock could provide more travel.

To enable extended shocks, one could take inspiration from the PRG 5" lift kit for Armada:
https://www.prgproducts.com/product-pag ... t-lift-kit

I really like the way the bracket includes mounts for a second shock mount:







See how the bolt-on bracket incorporates a mount for a second shock in the rear? Maybe somebody could design a bolt-on spacer bracket that would include mounts for both front & rear shocks?

[palmerwmd]

I am not clear on one thing.
The pics u showed in the beginning of thread.
Did u already do the Titan swap up front or are just considering it?

[Code Pathfinder]

Good Stuff GED.

I can confirm that the Armada swap in the rear is possible.

I'm running a Hybrid Armada swap by using Armada Bilstein shocks and Armada Coil Springs.

I am also running a custom 4-inch drop bracket lift kit like you pictured above. I do not have the shocks mounted to the coil bucket, however.

Check out this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxAYSaqeGQ4&t=504s

Victor is on here from time to time. He did the Armada Swap in the rear.

Another Great in Depth Video from Fabians Bike Life:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ke2n6NUbiZg

Also check out my channel as well if your curious about my setup!

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBCvNq ... zr6Yt9B2Sw

[GED]

I am not clear on one thing.
The pics u showed in the beginning of thread.
Did u already do the Titan swap up front or are just considering it?

I (Well, Greg from PRG) already did the Titan Swap on my Xterra (not on the Pathfinder).

I am not considering that kind of Titan swap anymore for the Pathfinder.
I want more than 10" of travel...

[GED]

I can confirm that the Armada swap in the rear is possible.

Yep, I have been reading your content multiple times.
Thanks a lot for the time you put in to document your trials.

Did you know they now make suspension bushings for the US models?
I've got a set of those in box and the heavy duty springs from 4x4parts,
but not installed.
I'm dreaming of getting 37s...

[silverarrow27]

I can confirm that the Armada swap in the rear is possible.

Yep, I have been reading your content multiple times.
Thanks a lot for the time you put in to document your trials.

Did you know they now make suspension bushings for the US models?
I've got a set of those in box and the heavy duty springs from 4x4parts,
but not installed.
I'm dreaming of getting 37s...

I'm not sure how stiff the HD springs from 4x4parts are, but even I found the medium springs from OME a tad bit too stiff if you don't have an aftermarket bumper or tire carrier.

[Thupertrooper]

I been out of the Pathy loop for a bit but Ill be going over everything I have done to the Pathy to this date. Its a never ending prototype build with little information covering very basic dimensions. I em running a rear subframe from an 08 SE Towing package non OF. 3.36 gears Fox 2.0 shocks.
Swapped out the springs with my old set of Armada Towing Pkg and OF for the thickest springs.

[Thupertrooper]

Before and after no weight and no air in airbags.

[palmerwmd]

Those are some serious looking srpings!

[Thupertrooper]

I don't have the specific part number, but that is the thickest OEM Armada spring. The last set is 4wd Towing package non OffRoad package. Springs were to soft and kept bottoming out. Now I feel like I slapped sway bars on lol. Now that I did the Armada swap you guys don't have to. Only benefit I have is my alignment is fixed, No spacers, Longer shocks, Beefier R230/Axles are thicker( more splines) . If everything goes well I will be installing a m205 front diff to run rear axles in the front( adjustable control arms) 6"-7". Test is to see if OEM Rear pathy axles splines fit into Armada\Titan front hubs.

Reason for the bald tires I been debating selling the rig but part of me wants to keep it since no one really mods these things. Everybody wanted to see it SAS but love doing things a little different. Been trying to run the truck into the ground but it wont die so I guess she gets new shoes lol.