Well, it's getting close to $2 per liter now, (over $7 a gallon). All time high.
Experts calling for over $2 this weekend.

Diesel was hovering @ $2.40 per liter today..that's nutty. Imagine for a second....$9 gallon. All time high - by a mile.

I can't believe it's going to cost $140+ to fill the tank soon.
I fill up once per week on average, so it hits the wallet hard.

My thoughts of going to a diesel vehicle eventually, are being brought back to reality, too.

It appears the very best thing to do, is not buy a new gas powered vehicle.
Don't even bother with a hybrid.

The sooner you convert to a full electric vehicle, for better or worse, you'll never go back.

The future is hydrogen. The close future is electric my friends.

TooMuchControl wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 10, 2022 8:44 pm

The sooner you convert to a full electric vehicle, for better or worse, you'll never go back.

If you happen to have a garage (I don't), happen to live in a dense metro (I don't), can afford the premium for a technology that's barely ready for prime time (I can't), and can afford to fix that technology when it breaks (if it hasn't yet, get your wallet ready), then that might be good advice.

TooMuchControl wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 10, 2022 8:44 pm

The future is hydrogen.

Quite. Except how is hydrogen made? Oh yeah, duh... from natural gas.

TooMuchControl wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 10, 2022 8:44 pm

The close future is electric my friends.

The imperative at the moment and the long term answer is the same. Get a better government.

VStar makes good points as usual.

I remember readin a great many dystopian nvels as a child where the high power density of fosissil fuels was rationed to the few and rich.

Several countries in Europe has been living with 6-7 dollar a gallon fuel for 10-15 years.
As result 4 cyl turbos are popular.
But ICE engines still rule the landscape.
And some select still drive V8 powered SUVs.

If I move to Europe again for any assignments I will take my V8 powered SUV and enjoy those highways.

Operating a vehicle is not only fuel cost ( though its the most visible)
Taxes, repairs, maitenance and of course purchase costs.

I budgeting an extra 100-200 dollars a month on fuel costs seems what we need to do.
but I will not sell my V8 Pathfinder.
I enjoy it too much.

The fact that we can pull up to any gas station and buy as much fuel as we want is still wonderful and incredible.

For those interested, here's the real future:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 130939.htm

The most fundamental problem with hydrogen isn't the cost, it's the Hindenburg. Its ridiculous flash point and the fact that it tends to "puddle" in the roof of any enclosed space makes it simply too dangerous to support the notion of "hydrogen stations" like normal gas stations. However, methane -- house gas -- is another matter. We know how to handle methane safely, just like propane, butane and lots of other flammable gasses. The real answer is having a fuel cell onboard an EV that can run directly off methane, or perhaps a "cracking unit" that can turn methane into hydrogen and soot onboard and feed it to the fuel cell. The program at Georgia Tech has gone deeply into both approaches, and if our government had even half a brain, they'd be throwing a great deal more money at programs like that than at EV subsidies supporting an "unready" technology and industry.

Well, here on this lazy Sunday morning, $4 gas has officially arrived in Arkansas. The $3.99_9 signs look surreal in what has always been a top-5 state for cheap gas. Seems like most stations are trying to hold the line without that dread "4" going up, but a few have crossed to the dark side since Friday. This while EV's hum all around China with footprints less green than a '62 DeSoto, because of the hideous coal-fired plants that fuel them. The Chinese and Indians build one of those a week between them. That's been going on for decades, and I can only scratch my head at how stupid it all is, how ridiculous most people's ideas are about what "green" means. I'm proud of Arkansas, at least we were smart enough to keep our nuke plant online. Drive a Leaf here and you really are fairly green, not just driving around with what amounts to lipstick on an electric pig. Natural State indeed.

I'm rambling. Seems like a good time to talk about where the future really needs to go, and will go despite all the lipstick and dumb ideas. The marketplace will always recognize a superior concept, no different from ditching that horse-and-buggy for a Model T. The marketplace will also identify and reject lipstick. Would anyone care to guess why EV's need subsidies?

EV's actually are the future, just not the plug-in kind. The only place I see plug-ins surviving is muscle cars, where range isn't an issue and the controllable traction of high-horsepower electric motors is an advantage no other power source can match. Watch an e-Prix race and you're looking at the future of speed. It definitely isn't the foot-palpable thunder of a NASCAR straightaway, but I personally find the scream of all those tortured electrons just as appealing in its own fashion. Maybe Elon can come up with some cool sound effects for all of us.

For everyone else, the notion of waiting even 45 minutes to "gas up" seems a little goofy to most, and the infrastructure cost of covering the world with CHADEMO stations will make the Green New Deal look like Little Orphan Annie next to Daddy Warbucks. Not to mention the undesirability of having only one, centralized source of fuel and transport. If you hate the power company now, you'll really hate them if you ever empower them to turn off your transportation by throwing a switch. Gasoline is fungible, and the fungibility of any future fuel is something we should frankly insist on. Whenever I ask myself what makes America better and freer than the rest of the world, I always arrive at the same answer: Six-guns. We don't actually carry those anymore, but we're still a six-gun culture, and we all still own a six-gun. It's in our driveway. It's the ability to pack up and go where we please without interference, and do it cheaply. Whatever compromises that also compromises the American character. I dunno about you, but I happen to like my character, and I have zero desire to become German, or even Canadian.

So with all that in mind, what does our "future car" really need? I see it this way:
1) An actual green footprint, not a phony one
2) Fungible and plentiful fuel
3) Fuel that can be replaced during a bathroom break
4) Fuel that can be easily and inexpensively adapted to existing gas stations
5) Producibility that displaces as few existing industries as possible, and uses as much existing tooling as possible
6) Market acceptance that doesn't require intervention or subsidies
7) Repairability at reasonable costs

Number 7 is actually the thorniest, because the only way it can happen is by way of number 6. The new technology will basically need to take over the world and no longer be a "specialty" item for the rich-and-guilty, like EV's are today. There's a reason the lug nuts for an Altima cost $5 and the lug nuts for a GTR cost $500, and it isn't really the materials. The economies between building 1M of something and 1K of something are much bigger than most people realize. However, if we look at all the aspects of a hydrogen hybrid, the only one that isn't yet ready for prime-time is the fuel source. Toyota, Honda and Hyundai have already trial-ballooned fuel cells, and from an energy-conversion standpoint, their output is sufficient to push a car even if the battery is flat. Most people will settle for reduced performance if it means they can be on their way. So except for the Hindenburg problem, the whole electric drivetrain is already engineered and usable. Even the widely-touted IDTechEx report that trashes hydrogen hybrids proceeds on the mistaken assumption that we're stuck with the Hindenburg. We aren't, as you can see from the link I posted earlier. Catalytic fuel cells or onboard methane crackers are the bridge between the hydrogen economy we all want and the impracticality of handling hydrogen. It's coming, and here's why the market will like it. Let's take it by the numbers.
1) Water out the tailpipe, and a disposable "soot trap" you can compost in your garden. Nothing else. The operating footprint of a methane FCHV will be actually green, not lipstick.
2) Enough methane under South Dakota alone to keep the world happy for about 500 years.
3) We know how to handle flammable-gas transfer quickly and safely. You probably already have methane in your house. We may end up back in the 1950's with gas station attendants, but you can still take a leak and be on your way.
4) The gas utilities already have a vast network of house-gas pipes underneath the entire country. Running them into every gas station isn't going to be expensive or require rocket-science. Methane tanks for boondocks stations will be no different from the propane tanks that already adorn most boonies houses.
5) The oil companies already own a great deal of the natural gas infrastructure and won't have any problem simply vending a different product. The car companies are already tooling for selling and servicing electric drivetrains, so the only thing new will be the fuel-cells and support hardware. So there won't be a lot of industry resistance, an important factor in making numbers 6 and 7 happen. Everybody's happy except the EPA. Probably 20% of their 14K employees could be out of jobs, but maybe they can be re-trained to build fuel cells.


Happy motoring indeed!

Thanks folks, for "filling up" my pride.

I think that a practical way is try a hybrid. first.
Probably why there are rumours on it, in the new 4Runner and Tacoma.

I'm quite happy only paying gas in driving around, and economically, it's the only worry.

Oh and..awesome...awesome posts above mine.

TooMuchControl wrote: ↑

Sat Mar 12, 2022 4:48 pm

I think that a practical way is try a hybrid. first.
Probably why there are rumours on it, in the new 4Runner and Tacoma.

Toyota is definitely throwing the biggest effort at hybrids of all kinds. Check out the Mirai. Nissan hasn't trial-ballooned any FCHV's, but here's a tidbit in the "more than one way to skin a cat" department: They are working on an FCHV that would run on 50-50 ethanol and water using an onboard cracker and a solid-oxide fuel cell. Downside is it would still make CO2, but less than an ICE. It could be an interesting stopgap. I still think the Georgia Tech shoebox catalyst is most likely to succeed, simply because it could run your house and not just your car. You can bet the utilities and oil companies will love the notion of gassing up your domicile and not merely your wheels. No more "snow clots" in the grid like Texas last winter, either. There's a lot to like about the whole concept.


In the immortal words of Firesign Theatre, "The future's not here yet. Live it or live with it!"

Vstar, do you remember the hydrogen fuel cell Xterra prototype from years ago? I can't believe it's been a decade since then!
https://uk.nissannews.com/en-GB/release ... xterra-fcv?

smj999smj wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 18, 2022 8:38 am

Vstar, do you remember the hydrogen fuel cell Xterra prototype from years ago? I can't believe it's been a decade since then!

Yep, never saw one but it was actually in one of the science mags at the time, Science News I think. Nissan got a little over their skis with it, the FC's at the time worked fine for NASA but they weren't quite ready for cars yet. Lots of progress on that end in the last decade and a half.

I actually got to see it or one of them. I'm not sure how many they made? In 2003, I made Master Tech and at the last minute, Nissan decided to bring back the Master Tech event in Las Vegas after cancelling it for several years. They gave me two airplane tickets and $300 and a room at the newly built, Mandalay Bay hotel. I flew in on a Friday and they had a tech convention that night and they had the Xterra there with the body lifted off the chassis to show off the fuel cell, etc. Saturday night, they had the awards dinner where I got my plaque and a dinner. I sat next to the Nissan engineer that helped design the first CONSULT scan tool, which he said was designed after seeing a handheld tool being used in a grocery store. On Sunday, I flew back home. It was nice, but a little rushed. Better than nothing, I guess, right?

smj999smj wrote: ↑

Sat Mar 19, 2022 4:17 pm

I actually got to see it or one of them. I'm not sure how many they made? In 2003, I made Master Tech and at the last minute, Nissan decided to bring back the Master Tech event in Las Vegas after cancelling it for several years. They gave me two airplane tickets and $300 and a room at the newly built, Mandalay Bay hotel. I flew in on a Friday and they had a tech convention that night and they had the Xterra there with the body lifted off the chassis to show off the fuel cell, etc. Saturday night, they had the awards dinner where I got my plaque and a dinner. I sat next to the Nissan engineer that helped design the first CONSULT scan tool, which he said was designed after seeing a handheld tool being used in a grocery store. On Sunday, I flew back home. It was nice, but a little rushed. Better than nothing, I guess, right?

My comment would be, "Too cool," even if all you got was a 5 minute look. I know they built a number of beta protos in Japan and even leased a few out as taxicabs, but I have no idea if any of them still exist.

Early apologies if reviving a 2 year old thread is not of your liking
But I need somewhere to cry... Just filled up at Costco (Central California) with 91 in my 2010 at $5.39/gal, 16.5gal... just under $90. This is the highest I recall ever paying since starting to drive back in 1999
And this is just the beginning of the "sunny" season.

donaldpath wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 30, 2024 1:47 pm

Early apologies if reviving a 2 year old thread is not of your liking
But I need somewhere to cry... Just filled up at Costco (Central California) with 91 in my 2010 at $5.39/gal, 16.5gal... just under $90. This is the highest I recall ever paying since starting to drive back in 1999

Just over $3 for regular here in Arkansas, and you can still find $2.94 at Sam's. Premium still under $4. That's all quite high by our standards.

You might consider ditching communism and relocating to a free state. Just a suggestion.

$5.39/gal,

So, up here in Toronto, the gas has spiked up quite a bit. Cheapest near me is 1.55 CAD a liter.

Now, at one time I would be screaming about this, but, that comes out to $1.13 X 3.78 = $4.27 USD per gallon.
Not bad considering we are taxed heavily on it, much like California, etc.

This is for 87. I've never filled up with anything else. If I were to jump to 90, it's a big jump. maybe 15%.

During the pandemic, Costco had gas at .76 CAD a liter. Can you imagine that?
~ $2.10 USD per gallon.

VStar650CL wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 30, 2024 3:53 pm

donaldpath wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 30, 2024 1:47 pm

Early apologies if reviving a 2 year old thread is not of your liking
But I need somewhere to cry... Just filled up at Costco (Central California) with 91 in my 2010 at $5.39/gal, 16.5gal... just under $90. This is the highest I recall ever paying since starting to drive back in 1999

Just over $3 for regular here in Arkansas, and you can still find $2.94 at Sam's. Premium still under $4. That's all quite high by our standards.

You might consider ditching communism and relocating to a free state. Just a suggestion.

It was 5.50 the other day at a costco here in silicon valley. a full tank of regular in the pathfinder is 100$. Not fun. It seems CA gas is always 1-2$ more than the rest of the country because... all the taxes and the regulations against refineries and gas. My understanding is that CA is a captured market. You basically cannot import fuel into CA in its ready state so it all has to be refined here which results in higher prices.