Hi folks, new to the forum so excuse my ignorance.
I recently purchased a 2004 Pathfinder with 118k miles on it and I think I might have really screwed the pooch on this one.
Got it from a dealer for around $5500 before taxes. Rear tires were bald and there was a little rust from what I could see on the undercarriage but the thing drove great.
Of course, I get home and the check engine light is on. Take the thing to the mechanic---which I should have done before I bought it and he tells me there is all sorts of crap going on.
Needs all new brakes, axle boot is torn, the engine light was for the catalytic converters, which he assumes all need to be replaced, and of course...the tires. He also mentioned the rot was in fact bad.
This whole fix could come close to $3000. The thing is drive-able as it is right now, but I don't know what to do.
Might have bought a real dud...
Moderator: volvite
I imagine any mechanic with fresh meat (the truck, not you 
) in his garage would give an assessment like that if you didn't know specifically what to look for. When I hear something about replacing all the catyltic converters as a probable resolution for an engine code, I hope he gave you helluva lot more information about how he reaches that conclusion when something like an O2 sensor is more likely to have failed on a 12-yo truck, and is probably the first place you'd look. Considering there are a few of those sensors...and the engine code(s) will tell you which one(s) to check...a reasonable mechanic might have provided you a list of codes if he bothered to pull them for you. If he cleared them and didn't give you a list, definitely find another mechanic.
As for options...well, guess it depends on you. Personally, owning an 04 myself, you start to justify your costs or acceptable losses on any purchase. If you decide to sell it off, what loss is acceptable if the next buyer sees the same problems you see? If you can't do the repairs yourself, do the repair costs justify the expected life of the vehicle (i.e., if $3K in repairs gives the truck two more years, is that better than a different option for the next two years)?
Can you do any of the work yourself and save a large chunk of that $3K with sweat equity? I mean, new brake components are fairly inexpensive, a torn CV is far from the end of the world (are you hearing an noises from the CV?), and O2 sensors (and even replacement cats if even necessary) are more affordable than you think might think. If the truck brakes safely, then you may be able to wait...though checking brake pad life is as easy as removing a tire for the most part. Tires might be the most expensive replacement on that list, but those are a must if truly worn. Still, even the cheapest set of new tires will get you through the next couple years.
If the dealer you bought it from registered the vehicle for your home state, then presume you won't be due for emissions or inspection for another year, right? If so that buys you time to save up and solve some problems.
) in his garage would give an assessment like that if you didn't know specifically what to look for. When I hear something about replacing all the catyltic converters as a probable resolution for an engine code, I hope he gave you helluva lot more information about how he reaches that conclusion when something like an O2 sensor is more likely to have failed on a 12-yo truck, and is probably the first place you'd look. Considering there are a few of those sensors...and the engine code(s) will tell you which one(s) to check...a reasonable mechanic might have provided you a list of codes if he bothered to pull them for you. If he cleared them and didn't give you a list, definitely find another mechanic. As for options...well, guess it depends on you. Personally, owning an 04 myself, you start to justify your costs or acceptable losses on any purchase. If you decide to sell it off, what loss is acceptable if the next buyer sees the same problems you see? If you can't do the repairs yourself, do the repair costs justify the expected life of the vehicle (i.e., if $3K in repairs gives the truck two more years, is that better than a different option for the next two years)?
Can you do any of the work yourself and save a large chunk of that $3K with sweat equity? I mean, new brake components are fairly inexpensive, a torn CV is far from the end of the world (are you hearing an noises from the CV?), and O2 sensors (and even replacement cats if even necessary) are more affordable than you think might think. If the truck brakes safely, then you may be able to wait...though checking brake pad life is as easy as removing a tire for the most part. Tires might be the most expensive replacement on that list, but those are a must if truly worn. Still, even the cheapest set of new tires will get you through the next couple years.
If the dealer you bought it from registered the vehicle for your home state, then presume you won't be due for emissions or inspection for another year, right? If so that buys you time to save up and solve some problems.
Hey! Thanks for the response Hawairish. So the mechanic did give me the codes and did not clear them however, it sounds like the codes were the only proof he had of needing to replace the cats. P0420-430 was what he provided me with. He gave me limited explanation and told me the cat codes were bad, having both of them, and that cheaper aftermarket options were not going to necessarily do the job (something to do with efficiency).
As far as the cv goes, I don't hear clicking or anything when I turn. The most noticeable issues on the car are two things:
-A 'wub wub' knocking sound coming from the front end, with thumping on the floor drivers side, at lower-medium speeds
-Car shudders when braking hard
-Front tires are brand new, rear tires have like zero tread on them
This mechanic isn't a bad guy, we have had him for years---but I am beginning to question how he is justifying putting $2k+ into a problem that he had not entirely investigated. I am assuming his judgement rested entirely on the cat codes.
As far as the cv goes, I don't hear clicking or anything when I turn. The most noticeable issues on the car are two things:
-A 'wub wub' knocking sound coming from the front end, with thumping on the floor drivers side, at lower-medium speeds
-Car shudders when braking hard
-Front tires are brand new, rear tires have like zero tread on them
This mechanic isn't a bad guy, we have had him for years---but I am beginning to question how he is justifying putting $2k+ into a problem that he had not entirely investigated. I am assuming his judgement rested entirely on the cat codes.
There are some questionable aftermarket converters on the market. Go with a name brand like Walker or Bosal and they'll work fine. Most of the time if there is a P0420 code and/or P0430 code and there are no oxygen sensor, ignition or misfire codes, and there are no exhaust or vacuum leaks, it's usually do to an inefficient upstream (or front) catalytic converter. The downstream (or rear) converters are not monitored so replacing them is typically not necessary unless they are rusted out or clogged, which doesn't happen very often. O2 sensor spacers (aka "CEL eliminators") placed on the rear oxygen sensors can make the codes disappear, but the may not pass a state inspection, depending on where you live. They pull the element slight out of the exhaust stream to "trick" the system and keep the P0420/0430 codes from triggering.
As far as the CV, even if the boot is just torn, it usually makes more sense to just replace the shaft assembly with a reman unit. Rockauto.com is a great place to find low prices on parts, including the shaft and the converters and brakes.
As far as the CV, even if the boot is just torn, it usually makes more sense to just replace the shaft assembly with a reman unit. Rockauto.com is a great place to find low prices on parts, including the shaft and the converters and brakes.
I have some restored faith in your mechanic, then. Of course, keep in mind, too, that any shop is going to want to provide the most sound and comprehensive solution. This means using "quality" parts and possibly an "over-solution" so that they don't wind up redoing any work, either from a prematurely-failing part, or lack of solving the original problem with a lesser solution and having to eat any new costs (or worse, passing those costs to you).
Cheaper isn't always better of course. But then again, maybe it's not far from it. I can't attest to the quality of aftermarket cats, but when I see OE parts costing 3x-4x that of aftermarket parts (and we're talking several hundreds of dollars when it comes to cats and O2 sensors), it'll be a cold day in hell when I pay that amount without any certainty that said 3x-4x part will last 3x-4x longer. I only use OE parts if I absolutely must...and I rarely reach that point. But that's just me. Don't forget there's an entire industry also devoted to used parts, which is sometimes the best way to get OE-quality parts and aftermarket prices, if you don't mind some possible wear-and-tear.
As SMJ hinted on, P0420/P0430 can be misleading since it relies on other components and assumptions. Per the Factory Service Manual (http://www.nicoclub.com/FSM/Pathfinder/2004_Pathfinder/, see EC-334), replacing the cats is the last diagnostic decision, after several prior steps before that have returned positive. That list includes an upstream exhaust leak...which you'd be surprised is actually not too uncommon. SMJ hits the nail on the head, too, by saying that if you have those code and any other codes (seemingly related or not), it's very possible that one is triggering the next. Beware the cascading codes! (And did the truck throw both codes? Each code pertains to a specific side of the engine, so if it's both, question the odds that both have failed, versus some other upstream component having a downstream impact.)
BTW, the FSM is your ultimate resource. If you have any inclination to do the work yourself, or a buddy who can help, that's the official Nissan guide, and it's very useful...far beyond any Haynes/Chilton guide. At worst case, it can help prepare you for any discussions with a mechanic. Best part: it's free courtesy of NICO.
Touching on the most notable issues you mentioned:
--Got me on the 'wub wub' sound...is it constant, speed related, happens during turns, bumps, acceleration, braking, etc.? Guessing wheel bearing at this point.
--The thumping on the drivers side...best guess, driver's side motor mount. Do you notice any sort of additional chassis pulse when it's shifting between 1st and 2nd gear under medium acceleration? A bad motor mount will cause the engine to lift when torqued, then the motor will settle back down. This is what was happening on my buddy's 02 R50 just last year...the mount had split in half. And you know the other part...we suspect it caused an exhaust leak on the driver's side, which then threw some codes (I'll have to confirm what they were). Changing the motor mounts are a PITA...fortunately we were working on a project that involved disconnecting the motor mount anyway, which is how we discovered it.
--Shudder during hard braking: excessive run-out on one or both front rotors. Limit is .10mm. Buddy's truck had this problem two months ago, too.
--Since the front tires are good, that's like a 50% discount on tires
. You can just replace the rears of course, though you'd want to make sure the sizes on all four are the same.
It's unfortunate that you're in this position, facing these sorts of repairs. But in all honesty, these are pretty straight-forward repairs and not atypical for this truck at this age. Personally, I wouldn't consider it a dud...it just needs some work, which I think is usually expected when buying used. But think about it this way: would you have spent $3K over book price on the same vehicle if you knew those parts had been addressed? Probably not; you just wished you had paid a little less knowing what you know now (yet on the flipside, if you paid $3K less, would it be harder to justify doing $3K of work?). That's just how I think about it...if you like the vehicle, and think it can do what you need for a little while, then it becomes an investment.
I can say this much, though: when the truck is in working order, it really is a solid truck.
Cheaper isn't always better of course. But then again, maybe it's not far from it. I can't attest to the quality of aftermarket cats, but when I see OE parts costing 3x-4x that of aftermarket parts (and we're talking several hundreds of dollars when it comes to cats and O2 sensors), it'll be a cold day in hell when I pay that amount without any certainty that said 3x-4x part will last 3x-4x longer. I only use OE parts if I absolutely must...and I rarely reach that point. But that's just me. Don't forget there's an entire industry also devoted to used parts, which is sometimes the best way to get OE-quality parts and aftermarket prices, if you don't mind some possible wear-and-tear.
As SMJ hinted on, P0420/P0430 can be misleading since it relies on other components and assumptions. Per the Factory Service Manual (http://www.nicoclub.com/FSM/Pathfinder/2004_Pathfinder/, see EC-334), replacing the cats is the last diagnostic decision, after several prior steps before that have returned positive. That list includes an upstream exhaust leak...which you'd be surprised is actually not too uncommon. SMJ hits the nail on the head, too, by saying that if you have those code and any other codes (seemingly related or not), it's very possible that one is triggering the next. Beware the cascading codes! (And did the truck throw both codes? Each code pertains to a specific side of the engine, so if it's both, question the odds that both have failed, versus some other upstream component having a downstream impact.)
BTW, the FSM is your ultimate resource. If you have any inclination to do the work yourself, or a buddy who can help, that's the official Nissan guide, and it's very useful...far beyond any Haynes/Chilton guide. At worst case, it can help prepare you for any discussions with a mechanic. Best part: it's free courtesy of NICO.
Touching on the most notable issues you mentioned:
--Got me on the 'wub wub' sound...is it constant, speed related, happens during turns, bumps, acceleration, braking, etc.? Guessing wheel bearing at this point.
--The thumping on the drivers side...best guess, driver's side motor mount. Do you notice any sort of additional chassis pulse when it's shifting between 1st and 2nd gear under medium acceleration? A bad motor mount will cause the engine to lift when torqued, then the motor will settle back down. This is what was happening on my buddy's 02 R50 just last year...the mount had split in half. And you know the other part...we suspect it caused an exhaust leak on the driver's side, which then threw some codes (I'll have to confirm what they were). Changing the motor mounts are a PITA...fortunately we were working on a project that involved disconnecting the motor mount anyway, which is how we discovered it.
--Shudder during hard braking: excessive run-out on one or both front rotors. Limit is .10mm. Buddy's truck had this problem two months ago, too.
--Since the front tires are good, that's like a 50% discount on tires
. You can just replace the rears of course, though you'd want to make sure the sizes on all four are the same.It's unfortunate that you're in this position, facing these sorts of repairs. But in all honesty, these are pretty straight-forward repairs and not atypical for this truck at this age. Personally, I wouldn't consider it a dud...it just needs some work, which I think is usually expected when buying used. But think about it this way: would you have spent $3K over book price on the same vehicle if you knew those parts had been addressed? Probably not; you just wished you had paid a little less knowing what you know now (yet on the flipside, if you paid $3K less, would it be harder to justify doing $3K of work?). That's just how I think about it...if you like the vehicle, and think it can do what you need for a little while, then it becomes an investment.
I can say this much, though: when the truck is in working order, it really is a solid truck.
***UPDATE***
So I took the pathfinder to the dealership with a list from our mechanic. This dealership is notoriously sleazy BUT, they did EVERYTHING.
-new tires
-replaced cv joint
-cat service/exhaust
-full brake job
So I am thrilled.
However, there is still that noise coming from the front end and I am determined to fix it. It is audible at around 15-20 mph and corresponds to speed, sounds like a wub wub wub, and I can feel just a little thumping under my feet in the drivers side. I am suspecting a wheel bearing after searching around on the internet, but I can't be certain as I FEEL it in the floor boards.
edit: engine mount? I don't think so as it doesn't get worse with acceleration, it's most audible when I am not hitting the gas.
So I took the pathfinder to the dealership with a list from our mechanic. This dealership is notoriously sleazy BUT, they did EVERYTHING.
-new tires
-replaced cv joint
-cat service/exhaust
-full brake job
So I am thrilled.
However, there is still that noise coming from the front end and I am determined to fix it. It is audible at around 15-20 mph and corresponds to speed, sounds like a wub wub wub, and I can feel just a little thumping under my feet in the drivers side. I am suspecting a wheel bearing after searching around on the internet, but I can't be certain as I FEEL it in the floor boards.
edit: engine mount? I don't think so as it doesn't get worse with acceleration, it's most audible when I am not hitting the gas.
Sorry, I misinterpreted the thumping with a single event (or repetitive single event, if that makes more sense) rather than something more constant. In that case, wheel bearing is a decent place to start (there are only so many things rotating, of course). Sometimes they just need to be tightened up again with the bearing nut, then backed off per installation procedure.wwm2889 wrote: edit: engine mount? I don't think so as it doesn't get worse with acceleration, it's most audible when I am not hitting the gas.
However, if you can feel it that noticeably in the floorboards, might I also suggest the front driveshaft's u-joints? The driveshaft always spins unless you have manual wheel hubs to disengage the CVs. A bad u-joint can cause a small variety of issues. You can remove the driveshaft temporarily as a test to see if the noise subsides, and replacement u-joints are rather inexpensive (but require a press to remove/install).
But that's great you got a few things buttoned up on it.
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